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In this episode of the podcast, we delve into overcoming the burden of 'shoulding'—that nagging feeling of always having to meet certain expectations.
I chat with my client Marilyn about how this constant pressure was dictating her life choices, causing stress and preventing her from being present with her family. Throughout our coaching, we explored identifying these intrusive thoughts and finding strategies to pivot away from them.
Marilyn shares her journey of shifting from feeling overwhelmed by obligations to embracing a more balanced, fulfilling life as a working mom.
Topics in this episode:
Tackling the pressure of "shoulds" and how to shake them off.
Insights from Marilyn's coaching experience and key takeaways.
Strategies for juggling career goals and motherhood effectively.
Marilyn's personal growth journey and the shifts in her mindset.
Handy tools and techniques from coaching to live more intentionally.
Show Notes & References:
This podcast is on YouTube! Check it out by clicking here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPZA5JKXYxjCMqodh4wxPBg
Learn more about coaching with me by clicking here: https://www.rebeccaolsoncoaching.com/aligning-motherhood-program
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Transcript
Intro
All right, working moms, I have for you a podcast with one of my clients. Her name is Marilyn, and we are talking all about having the courage to stop shoulding.
Yes, you heard me right, I’m saying shoulding.
“I should be doing something.”
That's essentially when you have the thought, I should be doing something or I shouldn't be doing something. You know, it's like,
I should really be spending more time with my kids.
I should really be doing that project.
I should really get more done today.
I really shouldn't be resting right now.
I should really be cleaning the house.
I should really get one more thing done on my to do list.
Everyone has ‘shoulding’ thoughts, but for Marilyn, what she really discovered was how that was controlling her time, and her energy.
It was causing her to overwork. It was having her over prioritize work. It was having her not be present with her family. Shoulding was at the heart of so much of the work that we did in coaching and learning how to not just identify when she was shoulding, but having tools to actually learn how to pivot out of it when she realized it.
I just knew that I had to have her on the podcast and pick her brain and talk all about this topic of ending the shoulding. All right, working moms, you're not going to want to miss this one. Let's get to it.
Welcome to the ambitious and balanced working mom podcast, the place for women who want to balance their ambitious career goals with their life as a mom. If you're looking to feel more confident, decisive, and productive at both work and home, then this is the place for you. I'm your host, Rebecca Olson. Let's get to it.
Rebecca: All right. Well, hello, working moms. I'm really excited to bring on a guest to the show today. I have Marilyn Abago here with me. Say hello, Marilyn.
Marilyn: Hi, everyone.
Rebecca: A very tentative hello. Now we're going to get really into this great topic today. Marilyn and I have been working together for almost a year in one on one coaching.
She had actually worked with me prior and even like a group program, and then we took a long several year break and then came back to doing some one on one coaching. So I've known her for quite some time, and she's been on such an amazing journey.
Light bulb experiences in coaching.
I wanted to bring her on this podcast, though, because she had so many light bulb experiences in coaching. But when I asked her which one she really wanted to talk about and she thought was, like, the heart or the thing that every woman needs to hear, she told me she wanted to talk about shoulding and I was just laughing with Marilyn because I did an episode of kind of ending the shoulding, like, episode six.
It was so early on in the iteration of this podcast, you know, at this point over three years ago, and I haven't really talked about it since. And so it's, like, the perfect time to bring this back up and talk about what it takes to stop shooting. So, thank you for being here and having this conversation with me.
Marilyn: Yeah, of course. I'm happy to be here.
Rebecca: So good. Can you just tell us a little bit about you and what you do, kids? Anything else we should know about you before we get started?
About Marilyn
Marilyn: Sure. Yeah. I am a working mom, obviously, since I'm working with you. I have one child who is four years old, and I have a you know, pretty demanding job in the pharma industry, which I really, really like.
And so, you know, a lot of my balance issues have been about the fact that I love being a mom, and I love working, and, that kind of, you know, me into a very imbalanced life.
And, Yeah. And I think, like, a lot of the, probably the people you work with, Rebecca, are, you know, pretty ambitious and, you know, want to be able to do it all and want to be able to do it well.
Rebecca: Yep, yep, 100%. And it's that feeling of choice. You know, I talk about that a lot. Like, you can. You can have one or the other, but you can't have both.
“I felt like I had to choose.”
And I know, you know…I think about that story a lot. For me, that was really why I got into coaching, is because I felt like I had to choose. And I didn't know that there was an option to say yes to both until I went down this rabbit hole of coaching and so forth, and then ended up, you know, starting this coaching business, helping working moms through this moment where you don't have to choose.
You can have the career that you want, and you can be the mom that you want and do both really well and not have to give them both up.
Like, I hate the fact that so many women live under this kind of oppressive thought, if you will. I know that sounds pretty heavy, but it feels kind of heavy to me that we feel like we have no other option, like, the stuckness that we all feel. So I know we can all relate to that.
So, tell, me about why this topic of shoulding and ultimately, like, ending all of the shoulding, why that really stands out to you over the coaching process.
Marilyn: Well, first of all, I didn't identify that that was my problem right. Until after.
Rebecca: No. You didn't come to coaching saying Rebecca, I have a shoulding problem. No, you did not.
Marliyns roadblocks.
Marilyn: Yeah. I think as we went through, you know, the first several sessions and the various layers of, like, kind of roadblocks I was having, it was expectations I had in my mind about what I needed to do when, at what level of quality and for whom. And that seemed to be pervasive in, like, just little things, big things. And I got to a point where it was like, everything felt big. Everything was overwhelming.
Everything was a priority.
Rebecca: I mean, like, everything was a priority. There was nothing that wasn't a priority.
Marilyn: Right, right. And so if everything was a priority, the things that I wasn't working on at that very moment were, like, looming over my head, you know? Right.
Rebecca: Yeah. You should be doing them.
Marilyn: Exactly.
Rebecca: If you haven't caught on, listeners out there around this idea of shouldn't, we're talking about that. That very phrase that we use in our mind, like, I really should do that. I'm not doing the thing. I really should do that. I, should go make sure that my client is x, y, or z. You know, I should be spending more time with my kids. I should be working on this project. I should be not working right now. I should be off. I could be asleep right now. I should be asleep right now.
I should. This, like, this constant, literal phrase that goes through our minds, like, we should be doing something. And I love that you connected it to the word expectation, because that really is.
Unspoken expectations.
In a lot of ways, it's unspoken expectations. And throughout our process, we had to go through. We had to actually talk about what those actual expectations are that were in your mind and whether they were expectations you wanted to live by or let go of and so forth.
But that's really what the shoulds all are. It's some form of an expectation of a way of life or a way of being or success that we think that we need to be measuring ourselves up to, and we're not, obviously, which is why we're shoulding, and we then feel terrible about ourselves and so forth. Right.
Marilyn: And feel like we're failing.
Rebecca: What did you kind of learn about your own shoulding and what those expectations were and where they came from?
Greatest fear.
Marilyn: There was a lot that were just, like, I wasn't even aware. I was, like, setting them for myself. Right. Like, I mean, I pride myself as somebody who, like, you know, wants to deliver, at times over deliver, because my expectations of myself sometimes are higher than what other people expect of me. And even understanding why do I set such high expectations? I'm shoulding myself. and what was underneath that? And I know you and I have laughed about this, and I'm willing to share that. One of my greatest fears is being homeless and being a begger.
Rebecca: And so, so many people do have a little inner voice that's very afraid of this idea that you're going to be homeless.
Marilyn: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think just understanding that, like, some of that is probably just, you know, things I've seen, like, just all these inputs, like, throughout life that you don't think about their impact to you until you actually slow down. Right. Like, you slow down with an objective person that goes, hm. Is that real? Does that need to be real? Yeah.
Rebecca: Yeah. Were there, as you think back to some of our conversations around these expectations, and I know we're laughing about the bag lady and that that's a real thing. And lots of people fear homelessness. They fear losing their job. You know, they fear not having any friends. Like, these are, these are actual fears that our fear brain has that are useful to us. I mean, we don't want to be a bag lady, and we don't want to be friendless and so forth. And so we do need to be aware of them on some level, but they don't need to be running the show in your mind.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: They don't need to be making all of the decisions for you. And that's what we were having to uncover on some level of how this little voice inside of you that was telling you that you should, how it was making decisions. What kind of decisions was it making for you?
Anxiety.
Marilyn: I mean, it was something as simple as I, think. We talked about how I felt anxiety if I wasn't prepared for all my 6 hours worth of meetings in a given day, right.
So I would wake up early, prep, like, make sure I understood every single one of them, what was expected of me, make sure I had prepped, even, like, got to the point where I was, like, drafting my notes already just so I could get through the day.
But again, if you go to like, well, if I do badly in any one of those meetings, will I get fired, lose my job, lose my house, and, you know, will I be a bag lady? I'm a bag lady. Right, right. And it's at that level of, like, I think, awareness that our work, like, brought to my mind.
Rebecca: Yeah, and although obviously, we say all that, and that seems absurd, and it. Our brains are absurd, like the things that our brain fears when it comes to things like failure or disappointing someone, those are like the common ones. Right?
But when you really think about why you fear that it is this very extreme kind of all or nothing, place that our brain likes to go to, it's a safety mechanism within us. Right? And so although you can, you know, we're sitting here, not standing, but we're sitting here talking to each other.
And we can know that, logically, any one of those meetings, if you weren't as prepared as you are, which sounds like you were, like, 120% prepared for all those meetings, and they were back to back to back to back. So you had to sacrifice sleep to do, and you had to do, you know, all these things, maybe sacrifice time with your kiddo in the morning in order to, like, get to your notes, whatever it is that you can logically know that if you, if one of those meetings didn't quite go according to plan, that you weren't, nothing was gonna happen.
Literally nothing was going to happen, and you could logically know that. But there was this other little voice inside of you that was so loud and so strong and so afraid that you just had to wake up at 05:00 in the morning because there was no way you were going to sleep anymore. And you just might as well just get up and just work the whole morning and get to that place where that little voice was no longer silent for at least the moment.
Marilyn: Yeah.
Rebecca: Interesting. What else did you, what other, like, circumstances or triggers did you notice the shoulding happen come up, like, so often?
Marilyn: So I think I was shoulding my husband.
Rebecca: I do that. Easy to do, easy to put expectations on other people. But how did you see that coming up?
Marilyn: I know, like, there was one point, I think, early last year, where we had signed up for, like, a camping trip with, like, my kids preschool. And, and then I, you know, I was like, oh, he's going to take her. Like, he's, we don't have any experience camping. He's going to do all this stuff.
And, you know, my husband, like, kind of thinks big and then sometimes, like, misses the details, and I tend to not miss the details. You know, it was like this urge of like, well, did you do this? You know, like, you should do this, right? Like, you should do this the day before, blah, blah, blah.
Being in control of every situation.
So I think at some point I was just like, well, let's see how uncomfortable it'll get for me to not do that to him and, like, what the outcome would be in the trip. Yeah, I think I remember it coming back, right? Saying, like, I do remember. And I was like, whoa, that was, like, such a revelation to not feel like I have to tell people what to do.
Rebecca: Like, control every little situation. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I could see how shoulding and control really go hand in hand.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: Because you really have to make sure that things go a particular way because they should go that way because of all of these other fears that are going on.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: That are associated to it. Very much so, kind of hyper control happened. I bet that trip was, like, way more relaxed and fun for everybody.
Marilyn: Oh, totally. I was just like, I'm seeding every sort of control. So it was, I mean, like, I don't want, you know, your podcast listeners to be like, wow, this person has major control issues. It's, you know, it's. It's the manager in me.
Rebecca: And we all have a bit of control issues. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't be as successful as we are. It's okay. It's just a matter of learning how to control them so that we have the life that we have.
Because I mean, this got in the way of you experiencing lots of things. We got to the bottom of this because we realized that it was so much at the heart of some of the behavior and the mindsets and the thoughts and things that you wanted to change ultimately.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: What did you realize this shoulding was and the hyper control was doing to you?
“Shoulding was robbing me from living life.”
Marilyn: It was really robbing me of, like, living life. Right. Like, I felt like I was just going through life trying to get to the next stage, trying to get to the next day.
Rebecca: Like, expectation.
Most of the day, I was not happy.
Marilyn: Exactly. Check on the next box, do the next task. And I. Yeah, I found myself, like, really, I think before I came, you know, back to coaching, I found myself feeling like, this can't be it. This can't be my life. Like, I love the time I spend with my family, and I protect that like a hawk. but outside of that, you know, like, most of the day, I was not happy.
Rebecca: Yeah. And I remember when you came initially, it was because you really wanted to talk about work and talk about, like, where you wanted to take your career and big picture things.
And, I remember that conversation because, like, offhandedly, I'm like, but tell me about how balanced you feel right now and, like, what are your working behaviors are? And it wasn't anything you brought up, I don't recall. And then you started diving into it.
I was like, hold on a second. We can't have this big picture conversation. You think that big changes have to happen in order for you to be happy, and that's actually not the case at all.
We need you to realize that your current life, current job, current state, current circumstance, like happiness and joy and presence and everything that you want in life is possible for you right now without changing absolutely anything but you. And then once, we're there, let's talk about if there's any other changes that need to happen.
Marilyn: Like, I remember that. Yeah.
Rebecca: What was yours? Do you remember what your response was like internally to that?
Marilyn: I just remember, I was like, okay, she makes sense, but I really just want to, you know, figure out what my next step in my career is. But, you know, because we had worked together, like, I knew that, like, there's a process, right? Yeah.
Rebecca: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
Marilyn: Yeah.
Rebecca: And I'm so glad we went through that. I mean, you're.
Marilyn: Oh, totally.
Rebecca: I mean, who, where we have landed now and where you're taking things career wise, probably infinitely different than where we would have been before if we could have ever even gotten there without having had some of the conversations that we had.
Marilyn: For sure. I love that. It was really just like we needed to get me to a right mindset before I could even think big picture.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Marilyn: Yeah, for sure.
Rebecca: When you're thinking, I'm just going to walk. This is like, I'm going to pretend like we're in coaching right now, but I think this is really helpful to, like, to, what I would say, model this out.
Marilyn: Right.
Connections between our thoughts, feelings, and actions.
Rebecca: I talk about the model by Brook Castillo, and it's our connections between our thoughts, feelings, and actions. And so the idea of shoulding is a thought ultimately, right. I should be fill in the blank or, you know, I shouldn't be. Either way, when you're shoulding, if you will, what is. What's generally the feeling that comes with that for you?
Marilyn: Anxiety. So it's a level of energy, right. And it's like, it's not just there's. There's, like, kind of, like, excited energy, but then there's, like, anxious energy. this is a lot of anxious energy. Energy that's in my head. Yeah.
Feeling highly responsible.
Rebecca: I remember another emotion we talked a lot about that came with shoulding was responsibility. Feeling highly responsible.
Marilyn: Yeah, the weight.
Rebecca: Oh, my gosh, it feels so weighty to feel like you should be spending more time doing x, y, or z or shouldn't be doing something that you're doing. Right. Just this heaviness that came with that.
So there's a sense of anxiety. There's a sense of uber responsibility that comes with that. And when you're feeling those things, what did we kind of uncover that you did? What were the acts?
Marilyn: I was overdoing. Right. Yeah. So instead of delegating or maybe training somebody up to delegate things to, I was trying to make sure, like, there weren't escalations that were going to happen, and therefore, I would be, like, micromanaging, but, like, I would be a lot more involved. I attend meetings that I should really trust my team to be able to handle, but, I'm there sitting and waiting to make sure that, like, everything's going right.
Rebecca: You're hovering. You're not really doing, but you're kind of hovering a little bit, making sure.
Okay. So you found yourself kind of inserting yourself and not releasing to your team in ways that you maybe would have been helpful to you. What else did you notice that you were doing when you were feeling anxious and that heaviness and responsibility.
Marilyn: I always like going to the kitchen and having a snack. We talked about, like, oh, it's your 30th of the hour.
Buffering or procrastinating.
Rebecca: Yep. I call that buffering. There's a whole episode I do talking about buffering behavior, and for sure, that's mine, too. Like, I go get another drink if I don't have, like, three cups going on on my desk. I don't know. But, yeah, for sure. Getting a cup of tea, like, making your body feel better, you know, always feels. Feels, better than the anxiety and the heaviness and so forth. Okay, so that's another one. What else?
Marilyn: Making lists. I'm really good at making lists. And then, like, overwhelming myself with them.
Rebecca: Yeah, I really. I should really be more organized.
Marilyn: Yeah.
Rebecca: I should really know. I should really prioritize this list. Let me make another one.
Marilyn: Yeah. Or, like, researching, maybe. I don't know enough. So let me go research some more.
Rebecca: I should know more information about this. Ooh, that was a good one for you. Cause that did send you down lots of rabbit holes of researching, and then you'd spend oodles of time researching. Tons of time. Yeah, for sure.
Marilyn: Yep. Okay.
Lack of self care.
Rebecca: I know there was another big one that was. Was this, like, lack of self care, like, you can't. Couldn't choose anything for just you, whether it was a workout or whether it was time away with a girlfriend or whether it was just a movie on the couch. Right. It was like, you should always be doing something productive, and so there was never opportunity to just pick something that was restful to you.
Marilyn: Yeah. Yeah. So it was even, like, if I had chosen my top three important things to do that day, and I never got to number three because of whatever circumstances happened that day, it was like, well, there goes, you know, like, watching an episode of something.
Rebecca: Not allowed to do that. Yeah. For sure. Huge one. Oh, gosh.
Marilyn: Yeah.
Rebecca: Yep. Anything else you could think of or, like, major parts of your shoulding things that you did as a result of it?
Marilyn: Those were the big ones. Oh. And another one was like, trying to prevent something from happening. Oh, what does that look like? Systematizing things.
Rebecca: Oh, that's right. You like to make a lot of manuals and, like, explanations of things for people and for yourself.
Marilyn: Yeah. Or, like, setting up a structure so that, you know, people will, like, have guardrails.
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Which would probably look like lots of long emails or explanations of things to.
Marilyn: Like, make sure everybody understands. Yeah.
Over prioritising work and de-prioritizing yourself.
Rebecca: Right. Spending all this time doing things that were not necessarily high priority, that then caused the results of all of this was overworking, for sure. Like, over prioritization of work all the time. What else was the result?
Marilyn: you know, just deprioritizing myself. Yeah.
Rebecca: So never feeling good about you.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: Always feeling less then because you're never meeting expectation.
Marilyn: Yep. Impacting sleep. Right. So I was all, I was already tired and then couldn't sleep. And it was just a whole cycle.
Rebecca: So many things. So many things came back to this. These thoughts and these shouldn't thoughts. So, what did you learn about how to change your shoulding thoughts?
Understanding the connection between thoughts and feelings.
Marilyn: I think, well, first of all, that understanding the connection between the thought, the feeling and the action. Right. Like that creates awareness.
And then, like, kind of going through. Okay. When I feel this way, what are the things that I do and, like, really thinking about every single variation, that I respond to that feeling and then, well, hold on.
Rebecca: I'm going to start with awareness. I just had a conversation with one of my clients about this today, and I want to say she's like, or seven sessions in and she's like, I don't feel like I'm implementing everything we're talking about, but I am so hyper aware of it.
And she was saying it like, maybe I should a little bit be further ahead. And she had to backtrack. She's like, but this feels, like, really important. I'm like, this is so important.
If your brain becomes hyper aware of when you're in a mindset or a behavior or you're doing the thing that you don't want to be doing, like, if you’re never are aware of that, then you can never change it. You can never do anything about it.
So we. Yeah, we spend a lot of time building awareness to. To what's going on in these behaviors and these mindsets so that you can identify it, like, instantaneously, ideally, like, you can know exactly when it starts. So then you have those tools to pivot yourself out of it.
So, awareness is huge, and we do. We do spend a lot of probably very uncomfortable time talking about that and building awareness. So huge that that is a tool in and of itself.
Okay, what's another one? What else have you learned…
>> Marilyn: Probably the pivoting the daily work?
>> Rebecca: Explain that. I mean, I've talked about this on the podcast before, but let's hear it from your words.
>> Marilyn: Basically, it helps your brain understand that you already are or are already doing the thing that, like, you feel like is a gap. So, I'm trying to think, you know, like, one thing is competence, right? Like, that was something that, like, the over. Over preparation is a symptom of.
And then going through the evidence of, like, where have I been competent in areas of my life or in the past? And, like, having to write that down every day. And then after a while, you're just like, how, like, how is it that I believed otherwise?
Rebecca: Yeah, I love it.
Mindset tools.
So, it's, a mindset tool, just to clarify. Right. So, mindset tool that's helping you, like, develop something that you want to believe about yourself or you. You sort of believe on some level, but you want to, like, deep. You want it to, like, get down into your bones, right? You want to, like, believe it on every core level.
And I remember that was one for you. You wanted to believe that you were competent because it was one of the reasons why you were constantly over preparing and constantly over researching was this, like, little piece of you that's like, maybe if I don't, then I wouldn't. I won't be competent.
And so you used that, those six steps in that practice to start getting your brain to get on board with the idea that you're already competent that there's no reason to not believe that you're not already.
Marilyn: This for sure.
Rebecca: So powerful. I do remember you would come to sessions to be like, yeah, I just don't think that anymore about myself. Like, I just don't. I don't know. I just, I have a different level of confidence.
“I feel totally different about the way I'm thinking about myself.”
I hear that from clients all the time when they've. When they really have been diligent about doing that daily work practice, they're like, yeah, I feel totally different about the way I'm thinking about myself.
It really does change those, like, the self belief and the confidence and the things that you're saying about yourself. So good.
So that was a tool that you used to help end some of the shoulding and get into different mindsets around that. What else did you kind of learn about the process of ending some of those shoulding mindsets?
Marilyn: Actually mapping the things that I was willing to do and the things that I was not willing to do.
Rebecca: Emphasis on the not.
Marilyn: Right. And actually writing them down because, you made me put it above my computer screen. And so every once in a while when I'm like, wait, what am I doing? And then I'll look at that. And then I was like, wait, is that in this column or that column?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Marilyn: yeah, yeah. And then it helps me stop.
Rebecca: I love that exercise, and I loved it for you because I remember so specifically how your brain, even if you picked three things to do that day, your brain kept going, well, if I can get to the other ten, then that would really be what I want to do. Right? It's like, it's kind of like a hidden agenda.
And so, I would make you declare, well, I'm doing this, and I'm not doing this, even though it should be obvious. If you selected these things, then you're clearly not selecting these things, but to your brain, it wasn't. And so I was like, no, you got to actually write that down. You got to actually tell your brain what you're not going to do today.
Marilyn: Yep. Yeah. That was so helpful for me.
Rebecca: Yeah, I love it. So good, great tool. What else?
Coaching and weekly accountability.
Marilyn: I mean, this is part of the coaching process, but, like, the weekly accountability or, you know, the prep form, just, being able to reflect and then consistently going back to, okay, what is my purpose in coaching? Like, where do I want to end up? And then how am I getting there?
Because sometimes, you know, you talked about how, like, there are phases that are uncomfortable, right? Or that client who's like, oh, hyper aware, but I feel like I'm not where I am. It's just to know that you're heading in the right direction, whether or not, like, the pace that you're going to is, is what it is, but there's progress being made, even if you, you are not consciously thinking about it.
Rebecca: Yeah. Coaching just has that built in level of accountability towards that. Right. Because if, the only thing you ever do is spend 1 hour every week talking about this and you never did your homework and you never thought about it otherwise, and you never did anything else, it's 1 hour a week more than you were ever putting to thinking about your goals and thinking about making change in moving towards the life that you want. Right? Just even that alone.
But most of us can't not think about some of those things. Once it's been brought into our awareness, through conversation, all of a sudden you start to clue into it, and, we only had to have the one conversation about shoulding, and all of a sudden, your brain noticed it everywhere. It's like, I do this all over the place.
And then a couple sessions later, I'm doing this with my husband, a couple of sessions later, oh, my gosh, I can't even go work out. Like, it's all coming from the same place. Right? Like, all of a sudden, your brain started to see just through awareness of all of these different areas because we were just having regular conversations about it.
Now that you've, I mean, everybody has shoulding thoughts, right? I have shoulding thoughts. You have shoulding thoughts. Just because we're aware of it and we have all these tools and we work on it doesn't mean that it doesn't show up.
You're better equipped to manage tough situations.
It just means that you're better. You're better equipped to manage, notice and manage and kind of pivot out of those thoughts when they happen.
And I'm curious what you notice now that you have all of those tools and you have that awareness and so forth. What's different now as a result of, like, as a result of that, like, from specifically around the shouldn't thoughts?
“My day-to-day is lighter.”
Marilyn: I feel like I go through life with, very friendly, like a friendly relationship with it, you know, like, my day to day is lighter because. Yeah, like, it comes up, and I think that's one of the things you prepared me for, is, like, you're never gonna not do this.
Rebecca: Just isn't the way it works.
Marilyn: Right. And I think just knowing that, like, oh, yeah, that's gonna come up. We also talked about, like, there are certain times or situations where it's more likely to come up and, like, preparing for that.
Rebecca: What were some of those for you, just curious?
Marilyn: Oh, Man, yeah. I mean, there was a big one that just happened recently.
Rebecca: Oh, the move and all the things that you should be doing for the move or being. Prepping for or decisions. And you were renovating, and you had, like, constant decisions to make around everything going on and what you doing.
I mean, it's like, when there's lots of decisions that have to be made, there's a lot of shoulding going on. Right. There's a lot of thinking that you should be doing something and you should be making decisions, and you should be researching, and you should be moving this progress forward when you're not. That was a huge one, for sure. That was a triggering moment. So change triggers that. What else triggers it?
Expect the unexpected.
Marilyn: That's true. I guess just higher volume of work, or maybe I'm not feeling well, I'm sick, or my kid is sick, and it's like I can't expect the same level of productivity or whatever, as I do on a normal day or even when projects are escalated. It's like, yeah. Just building in times in my calendar where there are unexpected. Expect the unexpected, because otherwise I was like, oh, man, that took an hour away from me. Now I need to. I should give up my evening and catch up because all of these things I had to do.
Rebecca: Yep. Yeah, definitely. I remember we talked quite a bit about building a little bit more buffer time for the unexpected, because you just have a job where unexpected comes up quite a bit, and there was no buffer time. And so then that was. Yeah. Causing a lot of shitting and then causing the overworking and, you know, a big piece of that, for sure is when you have a conversation with your boss coming up, that's a big trigger for people. A lot of shutting happens in that.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: And a lot of triggering thoughts happen in that. Or if you're gonna give a presentation or meet a client or something like that can have that. Or if you're gonna have a conflict conversation with someone, that is gonna be really intense in some way. I mean, so. So many little moments throughout the day where shoulds can happen.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: My kid has a meltdown before school and says that he doesn't want me to work and he doesn't want to go to school, and he doesn't want to go to his after school.
Normalize triggering moments.
And I 100% feel like I should be doing something different. Like, I don't want my kid doing that. Right. So it should happen all the time, and these triggering moments happen all the time, and we just have to normalize them.
Marilyn: Well, in addition to normalizing them, I think, the other end of it, right, when you come through the other end of whatever that event is, is the compassion that you have to have for yourself around, like, well, like, not a perfect day, but, hey, I'm still standing. I'm not dead. You know, the worst thing I thought was going to happen. Didn't happen.
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. Super important.
Marilyn: Super important.
Rebecca: We talk about not being in judgment of your shoulds a lot, because judgment then adds a whole level of shame and guilt and blame. That all feels very heavy. And now you have a whole bunch of other emotions to deal with and thoughts to deal with because of that.
It's just like, no, my brain's gonna go here. It's okay. I can love myself through this and have a completely different relationship other than, like, a whip through my life. Right. I can have compassion through my life and still be just as productive.
Marilyn: Yeah. And also, I think, like, you know, in. In the earlier work we did was, like, defining my values and what was important to me. And going back to that, just having that as a compass has been helpful. Cause it's like, oh, well, you know, that's more important to me than my fear driving me.
Finding your compass.
Rebecca: Yeah, tell me. I mean, I talk about that a lot with my clients, or it comes up a lot when I have these interviews that they talk about the values and the identity and purpose. I call that the compass work. And I do that with every single one of my clients. I would take them through that exercise, and we did that a long time ago. Right. We did that in our first iteration of coaching together.
But we retackled it out in this. If you connect back to why that work was important when it comes to the more recent work we've done around shoulding, like, how do you connect those two things on it? Being helpful to know your values and your identity and your purpose, to help you with the shoulding part of it.
Marilyn: Well, one is, like, value based, right? Like, the things that are important to you, that are core to you as a person. Like, your purpose. Like, why kind of, like, why are you here, right? Like, what value are you bringing to the world?
And then the other is, like, more fear based. Like, that part of you that's very, like, soft and vulnerable and may have been exposed to hurt or whatever. Right. that is really just trying to protect you. And I think there's room for that.
But I think us in modern society, we're not getting chased by a tiger or anything. We get to navigate our lives through things that are kind of higher level. That to me, feels like a pull rather than like this punishing, like, push of, should.
Rebecca: Yeah. So doing the values based exercises helped you then make values based decisions ultimately, decisions based on fear and based, based on the shoulds and based on others, people expectations and so forth, right?
Marilyn: Yeah. Yeah. It's so easy to make decisions right, when you know, like, okay, this is what's important to me. And this choice a aligns with that.
Building a foundation for decision making.
Rebecca: Yep. Yeah. For sure. For sure. If we never had done that work. And it's why I do the work first, too, because it's gonna. I want it to be a foundation for our decision making past, you know, past the beginning of our coaching time. I want it to bleed into all of the other conversations as we talk about really what's important to you and why you want what you want and the boundaries that you want to place and the priorities that you want to have in your life and so forth.
Marilyn: So, so good. Yeah, I love that.
Rebecca: So now you're here with so much, again, coming back to, like, so much more awareness of the shoulding, and you're so much more gentle with yourself and so much more compassionate with yourself and this little piece of you that is constantly thinking you should be doing something different than what you're doing. What's the result, though, of you really being able to manage all of the shoulding that's going on?
Being present.
Marilyn: I don't dread most of the hours, like, most of my awake hours, you know, like, I, like, I actually have time to enjoy things, right. And, like, when I take a minute to, let's say, console my kid or just, like, play, a silly game with her, there's not a, there's not like, a few minutes of back and forth about what I should do. Like, that energy does not get spent there anymore. It gets spent focusing on the moment that I have that. I love that.
Rebecca: Yeah. So you're actually choosing to play a silly game instead of think about, or, I mean, for sure to not do, to not, like, log back on in that moment, but your brain doesn't even think about those things as much anymore. It's just so focused on being present and enjoying the silly game and so forth.
Marilyn: I love that. Yeah, I love that. And then, you know, the over delivering is. It's the one thing that actually I've noticed with somebody, like, somebody doing it, and I was like, oh, that seems so familiar. And it's very easy for me now as things come through, my desk, that I'm like, all right, not gonna do that. Or, you know, like, gonna do that at an acceptable level.
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. Here's what's really important. Here's how much energy I'm going to put into this and where it falls in the priority. You don't have to spend a whole lot of time doing that. Things feel so much more natural to you in what you prioritize and what you don't. I love that.
So, decision making has come so much easier because you don't have this voice of expectation in your head all the time.
Marilyn: Exactly. And, you know, when I make those decisions, I accept the outcome. Right. Like, ooh, that's so fun. I think before, it was, like, I would make a decision after hemming and hawing, so already a lot of energy spent, and then, like, indecision…
Rebecca: Total indecision.
Marilyn: Yeah. And I also, like, expected, like, a certain outcome, and sometimes that doesn't happen, and, you know, if it doesn't happen in a way I envisioned it. There's a lot of shoulda, coulda, woulda, you know?
Rebecca: Yeah, energy spent ruminating, second guessing, wondering. So you've, like, of course, I assume that there's an element of that that happens right in our brain on some level, but it's infinitely less.
There's so much more energy you have gained back because you don't spend so much time second guessing every little decision that was made.
And then when something doesn't quite turn out the way that you want, or your daughter's behavior isn't quite the way that you want, or your husband doesn't respond in quite the way that you want, you don't spend a bunch of energy thinking about how you have failed and what you could be doing differently and how.
Marilyn: Exactly.
Rebecca: Let's blow everything up. We got to start all over again. This isn't working for me. At least, that's what I do. I like to pretend like my systems are all off and I got to recreate systems again.
Marilyn: I do that, too.
Rebecca: Rewrite my list all over again. Nobody is working for anybody. Yeah. So I'm hearing all this energy gain that has come back.
Marilyn: Oh, totally.
Rebecca: Time, energy, positivity, joy, like, so much has come back through. Letting go of the shoulds and the expectations and just having the tools to move yourself out of those expectations when you notice them.
Marilyn: Yep, exactly. And I think just coming out of it. Right, like understanding, my relationship with it, I think I used to feel like, almost oppressed by it.
Rebecca: It was like running. You were like an abusive relationship with your shoulding self.
Marilyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rebecca: She was not very nice to you.
Marilyn: No.
Rebecca: And you just kept returning though. You kept returning to her.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: That's why it was abusive. I don't mean that to be ofensive to anyone. I apologize if it is, but, yeah, for sure. And now you would describe that relationship as what?
Marilyn: How is it friendly? You know, like, really nobody I'm ever going to get rid of, but, you know, we're unfriendly, like an old friend that you've come to terms with the relationship and, like, we know how to work with each other.
Rebecca: Yeah, I love that.
Why was this valuable and worth the investment that you made? Financial investment, time investment, energy investment in coaching.
Marilyn: So, I mean, I've gone through therapy and it's so different. Right. Like, therapy helps you understand, like, why you do things the way you do.
“I needed help.”
And I was like a very aware person coming into coaching, but I think where I needed help is, like, my systems and the way I was approaching things to move myself forward weren't working. And I had tried many different ways and so, you know, like, and I've been trying since, like, the end of the pandemic, and I really got to the point where it's like, okay, I'm just burning time now. Like, I'm burning time. Like, I'm not getting, you know, like these years back of trying it by myself. And, yeah, it was just time to, like, move forward. I, I think I hit the limit of my own capacity and I needed help.
Rebecca: Yep. I love that. It's one of the big reasons why you came to coaching. Right. It's like, and so many do is they keep trying it on their own, it's not working.
And so it's either you're going to keep doing that and hitting a wall, or you got to do something different and you got to bring in an outside brain to help you, to help you figure this out. Just on the shoulding alone, though, I'm curious, like, why you saw that as now, in retrospect, as we've done this work and why you have seen that as being valuable and worth. Worth the investment of your resources.
“I got my life back.”
Marilyn: Because I got my life back, Rebecca. I don't know how else to explain it. I was tired waking up in the morning groggy.
Rebecca: Oh, gosh, I know that feeling. it's like being in a newborn stage without a newborn all the time.
“I had to do something.”
Marilyn: Yeah. Yeah. And I couldn't imagine living my life the way I was living it without any major change. And so it was like I had to do something.
And I think, again, you know, knowing your work and us having worked together before, it really helped to know, okay, this is going to be an investment, but it's an investment in me. Right.
You teach me the tools. Like, coaching has given me so many tools, and it's not like, okay, you help me solve a problem, and then I have to come back to you and resolve, another iteration of the problem. It's like you help me understand it and work with it, and I take that into many different aspects of my life.
Rebecca: Yeah. So I hear the actual emotional shift that has happened, the control over your happiness, the feeling of waking up, actually looking forward to your day and having energy for your day, and the very tangible experience of what that is like today.
But then the tools that you then learned and have, and we worked through together, and I helped you implement and create that toolkit for yourself. You have those for life. You have those forever because the tools don't change.
Marilyn: Right.
Rebecca: The tools are always the same.
Marilyn: Yeah. And I think, you know, the big picture thing, right? Why I came to you was like, what am I gonna do with my career? I think we came away with a compass for whatever next stages of my career is gonna be.
And then just even the bigger picture, like, longer term, like, the dream, the big dream I've had for myself, unblocking whatever that was, that wouldn't allow me to think about that.
Rebecca: You were living under too many expectations and high, responsibility. How in the world would you leave your job or think about changing your job or think about doing anything differently with that kind of restrictive, oppressive brain or thoughts, right?
Like, there was just no way you were, like, you were completely blocked from being able to think about what you wanted to do and dream and think long term. So when we cleared all that up, literally, like, a cloud lifted, and all of a sudden there was vision that you didn't realize was there before you connected to it in such a different way.
Marilyn: Right, right. Yeah.
Rebecca: So, yeah, the vision that came from all of this was huge, highly valuable, and it wasn't, and it wasn't even that. I had to walk you through a really specific input a and b and output c came, which was like, here's your new job, and here's exactly what you should do.
Believing in yourself and your vision.
It was like, no, no, I'm just. I'm helping you learn how to tap in and believe in yourself and your own vision and, like, clarify. You come up with those words in that language so that you take ownership over that, and then you always know how to recreate that for yourself in the future if you ever feel like you need to.
Marilyn: Right, exactly.
>> Rebecca: Yeah, so good. I love that. I talk a lot about ownership on this podcast and with my clients. Like, I want full ownership for everyone.
Ownership over the life that you want to create, over your happiness. I want you to feel like you own that.
I want you to feel like you own your ability to balance your life in whatever way, no matter what your circumstances are, no matter how busy you are, no matter what the season is, no matter if you have a, you know, workaholic boss or husband or partner that help, you know, all these circumstances that we tend to feel like don't allow us to live the life that we want to live.
I just want to shatter those walls for women because I believe so much that we, as women, have the tools and have the ability to own and create the life for ourselves with just ourselves. We don't need anybody to do anything else, you know?
Marilyn: I love that.
Rebecca: And you're just such a beautiful, beautiful example of what it looks like to take back that ownership and that control. It's amazing. So good.
Your energy right now is, like, infinitely different than where it was when we started working together. So much more control, so light, so fun, lots of smiles.
Clearly, you feel like you are in a joyful place, and you're experiencing that in such a wonderful way. So good.
Marilyn: I remember one of the prep forums, there was one day, like, towards the end of our coaching, where I was like. Like, this is what it feels like to feel like I'm in control of my life. And it was like, I remember writing, like, this is the first time I've ever felt this.
This is, like, very, very foreign, very good. but, yeah, I think I've always reacted to things like circumstances, and so, yeah, like, I've. I mean, you can see, like, you know, like, it's really created that ownership. about my day to day and just, you know, longer term, like, future things.
Rebecca: I love it. Yeah. I loved reading your prep forms. Just so you know, you were, like, one of my favorite clients and your prep forms, because you really got detailed into it. And I tell my clients, it's, like, up to you. Get as details you want or write me a sentence, it's fine. But you always wrote just some beautiful things about progress made every week.
And you totally me to tears multiple times in writing, just like that. I've never experienced this level of control. I never even realized that I could feel this way. It's like, this is why I do the work that I do.
It's so good. I love it. thank you for being here so much. It's just such an honor to pick your brain a little bit and talk about this. Is there anything that you feel like we didn't say or that working moms out there that are feeling oppressed by the expectations and the shoulds of their life need to hear?
Allow room for help.
Marilyn: No. I think maybe I touched on it a little bit, like, allow room for help, you know? Cause I think maybe there's also a should. If you're shoulding yourself, there's a should that you should be doing this on your own.
Rebecca: Yeah, that's me right there. And I shouldn't be spending money on it. I should be able to figure this out on my own. Right? All those kinds of shoulds that come with it.
Marilyn: Yep.
Rebecca: It's the root of the problem right there, for sure.
Marilyn: I love it. Make room for help.
Marilyn: Yeah.
Rebecca: It goes so much faster. The process goes so much faster if you get out.
Marilyn: Exactly.
Rebecca: I love it. Well, if anyone out there is ready to take that next step, it starts just like it did with Marilyn, with a free breakthrough call where we take the time to talk about where you're at right now, what's going on, what's the dream, what's the vision that you have for your life and how we're going to get you there.
In coaching, I will break it all down for you, and we will then talk about next steps. So if you're interested in taking me up on that offer to connect with me, you can go to www.rebeccaolsoncoaching.com/book. Thank you again, Marilyn. And, I mean, I know that you're around, and we're going to see each other soon. I have no doubt. but thanks for being here.
Marilyn: Of course.
Rebecca: All right, working moms, let's get to it.
